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Juliet Fraser is increasingly heard singing in France: at Ircam, the Cité de la Musique, the Muse en Circuit, the Gmem in Marseille... Between two concerts and after a magnificent version of "Skin", a composition by Rebecca Saunders written for Juliet Fraser, we discuss the threads woven by the musician: her career as a soloist, and her activities as curator of a festival in London and co-artistic director of a label dedicated to today's music.
Juliet, what is your relationship with France, French institutions and composers? You've sung the music of Georges Aperghis, Gérard Grisey and, more recently, Pascale Criton...
Actually, I think my relationship with France is constantly evolving. The fact is that I speak French, and honestly it's the only language I speak, apart from English. And as soon as I had the opportunity to work in France, I took it. So I have a special relationship with this country.
In 2008, I decided to spend two months in Paris. By then, I had already created the EXAUDI vocal ensemble (it was in its 6th year of existence). It was a rather special time in my life. I was looking for a new direction.
I took those two months to take stock: I dropped everything in England for a while, and came to Paris to rest, meet people, and think about the kind of life I wanted. It was very important for me. At that time, I remember, there was a meeting atIrcam for a project with EXAUDI and the ensemble L'Instant Donné, around the creation of a piece by Gérard Pesson. It stuck in my mind, because at that moment, something undoubtedly moved.
After that, we worked together several times, EXAUDI and l'Instant Donné.
Then there was the collaboration with Royaumont, and with Ircam, which was a very important institution, both for EXAUDI, and for me as a soloist, since in 2020 I sang Rebecca Saunders' piece "The Mouth" (for soprano & electronics). Apart from this strong link with Ircam and Royaumont, my experiences with the CNCM (Centres Nationaux de Création Musicale) are much more recent: I've just worked at La Muse en Circuit, the Gmem and the Théâtre Garonne, but invited by the Gmea. It's great to discover these teams and this musical system, because it doesn't exist in England. It's all new to me!
Did you learn French at school?
Yes, and I spent several vacations in France when I was young. And I love Paris! I'm very fond of France, although I also have strong ties with other countries, like Germany and Austria. It's like a patchwork quilt... I have connections and friends all over Europe. I feel like a European musician!
Can we talk about your collaboration with composer Pascale Criton on her new orchestral piece "Alter"? What texts do you sing?
There are three texts; one in French (a few words from Pascale), another in Arabic, and a final one in English written by me. Pascale chose a few words from an essay ("Inside Out") that I wrote during the confinement, at the end of 2020. We've worked together quite a bit over the last few years, but the research is still a bit sketchy, as she wanted to write a solo piece with electronics for me first. This piece was supposed to be premiered first, but was postponed. In the end, all our exchanges combine ideas for the two pieces, and it all blends together a little ... It seemed to me, however, that Pascale's research was always on the side of sound, the sensations of sound, and acoustic phenomena.
I assume you sing micro-intervals, as Pascale Criton's universe has been exploring this space for some years now?
I imagine you've already done this type of work with other composers?
Yes, I've sung lots of pieces with microtonal systems. Often, in this type of approach, the effects of the micro-intervals are unexpected, or in any case very different from what can be read on the score. But I have to say that Pascale has a particular approach to micro-intervals. What she's looking for are beats between stable sounds and sounds that are very close together, but which move a little. I like doing that!
By the way, I have a bit of trouble with equal temperament. I never understand why the voice should be "limited"; you can sing any kind of interval!
I always think in terms of sensations, even though we're talking about a very intellectual system. In reality, this exercise of feeling oneself in relation to something else - this friction - is something very physical, very sensitive, and I like that!
Juliet, I don't think you're quite like any other singer, in that you like to analyze music and talk about your practice and your commitment to creation. You're the exact opposite of the typical singer. You've written several essays on music, and we have several interviews and podcasts with you. You were just talking about the back-and-forth between the intellectual and the sensitive. In fact, when we sing today's music, these two aspects are often linked!
That's true, but at the same time I think there's always a balance between the intellectual and the sensitive. I think that's the starting point of musical practice! Because when you're rehearsing at home, you're more involved on the rational side - you criticize yourself, you deconstruct, you make decisions, you try things out - but when you're performing, you have to let all that go, to enter another dimension, governed by instinct and sensation. So there's always this tension between these two sides, this weird combination.
What you say about my approach to music is for me the natural combination of these two perspectives, but at the same time, I think it's important to also talk about practical things, concrete things, to give a three-dimensional image of an artist, because there's always this kind of mythology around singing: the image of the diva, the singer, the soprano... and I hate that! In fact, I want to show something much more human, and also more complex.
Coming back to Pascale Criton, and her process of working with performers, I know that it's important for her to work hand in hand with musicians; it's almost a process of composing together, and often the music only comes to fruition on the day of creation in concert. Is that how you experience it?
Yes, that's exactly what it is! And even though I've received the score of his new piece, I feel that it won't become reality until I sing it on stage: it's so complex, there's so much subtlety, the details are so fine! And there are sounds I can't yet imagine, as they will be the result of all the lines played by the instruments... I imagine even Pascale must have doubts about the final result! Indeed, experience tells me that music is built right up to the last moment...
Can we talk about another collaboration with a French musician, since we're talking about France? I'm thinking of your duo with double bass player Florentin Ginot and the creation in gestation: "We are all lichens"?
Florentin and I met in 2018. We performed a major play by Rebecca Saunders, with Musikfabrik. In this piece there was initially a small part for voice and double bass, which gave us the idea of doing a big project together. We began our research in 2019, but for reasons we all know, it's only happening this year!
For "We are all lichens", we commissioned Czech composer Martin Smolka and Polish multidisciplinary artist Anna Zaradny. It's currently on tour, and has become a very special project. Last year, to prepare ourselves, we also did a small duo project in Aberdeen with music by Pascale Criton and part of Martin Smolka's new piece; a kind of laboratory, before this year's big project. In June, we'll also be presenting a portrait of Georges Aperghis.
What is your relationship with the music of Georges Aperghis? I believe you've sung his Récitations?
Yes, I have! I've sung "Récitations", as have almost all female singers who want to explore contemporary music! And for me, as for many singers, it's a piece that opened up an incredible field of possibilities. I think it was in 2010, or something like that... I remember the first time I gave a solo recital in London, with only contemporary music. That was a turning point for me. I'd reached a stage where I had to decide: "Can I try to be a soloist? Is this what I want to do, to be alone on stage?"
Because until then I'd been part of ensembles like EXAUDI, or other ensembles and choirs; I sang a lot of contemporary music, and also baroque or renaissance music ... but in truth I was a bit frustrated. So with this solo recital came the moment to ask myself this question: "Do I want to be a soloist, and what does that mean?"
And the work I did on the "Récitations" was very important to me, because there was something very special about this score for me. It was like a secret that suddenly revealed itself, or a puzzle that took shape: I'd start singing the score, repeat the formulas, once, twice... and all of a sudden, the character or spirit of the "Recitation" would reveal itself! It was as if a beast, a living organism was hidden in the sounds, something very specific and clear, which suddenly revealed itself, and I loved it! I also love the combination of precision and freedom that is so characteristic of Aperghis's music. Apart from "Récitations", I also sang "Monomanies", but otherwise I haven't sung much of his music.
At some point, you decided to embark on a solo career. When you present your work and your field of exploration (I'm referring to your official biography on your website page), you evoke "the gnarly edges of contemporary music". That's a pretty specific way of doing things!
It's true, it's a bit special! But often what you read in a biography irritates me so much... In this formula, there's my poetic side, and also always a desire for precision: I try to formulate these "professional" considerations in a personal way. "Gnarly edges" is a poetic formula; it means "knotty" - it's said of hands or of a tree - so it's a bit of an image of something organic, which transforms itself, and which doesn't have an obvious beauty at first...
Something that resists and requires willpower, desire to make it your own, and stubbornness?
Yes, that's it! Above all, I like it to be an expression that's unexpected and difficult to define, so it's the opposite of a cliché.
You also write that you like to sing music that is "brand new", and works written especially for you. As we all know, you're a very active sponsor! Does that mean you listen to a lot of music, and are constantly on the lookout for new directions in music?
Yes, whether it's for the programming of works that already exist, or for commissions, the research involved takes time and energy. But it's absolutely necessary when you have your own ideas and desires.
Commissioning pieces is a way of shaping, of "sculpting" the repertoire, and of giving a platform to artists who interest me, but who perhaps don't have a space at the moment - or of trusting my flair! I can't just lie on my sofa waiting for a new repertoire to appear! (laughs). I want to follow my interests.
Perhaps also to ward off the fact that sometimes programmers tend towards a form of standardization?
Yes, maybe! Honestly, I think it's just a question of being active rather than reactive, of having my own ideas, and also of creating collaborations or creative relationships in which I can invest myself. Because it's exhausting to work with someone! (laughs) So in my opinion, it's better to be able to choose, to be very involved in the process.
You love stimulating new works, discovering new things, but that doesn't stop you from singing and re-singing Rebecca Saunders ' "Skin"; this summer, you'll be singing "Skin" for the 20th time! Is it the piece you've sung the most?
Yes, after Messiah (laughs), and I love it! Incidentally, I spoke earlier about the importance of Georges Aperghis in my career, but first I need to talk about Rebecca Saunders, who is perhaps ten times more important to me.
How did you come to meet her?
In fact, she chose me! It's really thanks to her that I became what I am today. I knew she'd chosen me for this play, even though a festival had tried to dissuade her, saying that nobody knew me, and that they needed a star. But she's as stubborn as I am (laughs), and she stood her ground! So I got the opportunity to work with her, and she wrote "Skin" for me in 2016. We did four or five sessions together in her studio in Berlin. The first time, I was very anxious! I sang her little pieces, pieces by Aperghis, Enno Poppe and others, and very quickly we moved on to forms of improvisation, experimenting with a few gestures - we explored the registers of the voice, on this or that vowel - and "Skin" was written like that, with my voice in her ears. So it was really "made-to-measure". That's why it suits me so well!
Like something you've always worn?
Yes, it is. But I have to say that my voice has changed over the years. It took me a long time to fully embody it, to find everything I was looking for in it.
Do you talk together about this evolution?
Not really! Maybe it's in the fact that her latest piece, "The Mouth", also written for me, is very different. It's probably also due to her own evolution, to the evolution of her artistic desires, or maybe it's a combination of our two paths. What's certain is that there are things I can do today with my voice that I couldn't do four or five years ago. So I was able to make different proposals for "The Mouth".
What exactly has changed in your voice in recent years?
Basically, it's the body that's changing. I'm getting older and stronger. Today I'm 42, I'm not the same as I was eight years ago! As we all know, the body, and therefore the voice, changes; it's not like a clarinet, which doesn't move. We all have to deal with these physical changes (hormonal, health-related, age-related...); it's all part of being a singer. You also have to take technical work into account, because here too, things change. I've done an enormous amount of work over the last few years, and today I can do things technically that I couldn't do before. What's more, I think I've got a bit more courage now! It's thanks to this that I was able to make proposals to Rebecca for "The Mouth", which I would never have dared to do before. It's also a question of self-knowledge, and confidence in my instrument.
A form of insurance?
Yes, it is! When I first met Rebecca, I was in a different place. It has to be said that "Skin" was a turning point for me in relation to the questions I'd been asking before: "Can I be a soloist, do I want to be? These questions had become almost obsessive, because I felt that I couldn't procrastinate for long, and that I had to make up my mind quickly if I wanted to change direction. There's a terrible pressure on young musicians - especially women - to prove themselves, "before it's too late". This year, 2016, was very special: I was torn between a kind of terror and joy, and that was hard to live with... I was like "on the edge" of my possibilities, so I didn't know if I was going to be able to honor the creations I'd dreamed of for so long. But little by little I found the strength to do so.
Why this fear? Because, psychologically, you're more exposed as a solo singer than as an instrumentalist?
In reality, it's a combination of factors. When you're used to singing alongside musicians you know very well (vocal ensemble experience), the situation changes radically when you feel alone on stage. There are also lots of "little things" that change: you travel alone, you arrive alone at rehearsals. There's no one to be vulnerable or honest with. All that is a huge change!
And then there's what other people expect of you, this whole "mythology" of the singer: what I have to be as a soloist, how I have to behave...
So I suddenly found myself in a completely different world and way of making music. And even though I wanted the change, it was a real rupture! After that, you get used to it, but it takes time...
It's a bit of a taboo subject, isn't it? We rarely talk about it...
I'm afraid so.
What about your duets? The one with pianist Mark Knoop, for example, or with Florentin Ginot?
On that subject, it's true that I still consider myself a "chamber" musician. Those are my roots, both as an oboist and as a singer. I've always loved the idea of being part of a small ensemble! So even though I'm a soloist today, I've kept that state of mind. I still try to feel like part of an ensemble, in the way I sing and listen too.
Even when you're singing solo with electronics?
Ah, that's the hardest part, of course, but I find solutions! What I really like is being "forced" to listen. As soon as I listen, it relaxes me a bit and keeps my mind occupied.
In a way, does it distract you?
Yes, because I'm listening rather than "projecting". So, for me, duets are about having that chamber music relationship, that spirit during rehearsals: having fun, making decisions together, making magic on stage, taking risks, sharing all that... So, of course, you have to choose the right partners, but I've been lucky so far! Mark is wonderful, and so is Florentin...
How did your love of music develop? Were your parents music lovers?
Yes, there's always been music in my family. In a way, my parents were untrained musicians. They sang, my mother played the viola... There was this musical environment. And then there's this story, true or fabricated, told by my mother: when she was pregnant with me, she went to listen to Beethoven, a composer she adored, and it seems that I kicked her belly to the rhythm of Beethoven's music! (laughs)
You could have become a percussionist!
Certainly not, because I can't do two things at once - I've got a melodic brain! I started out playing the cello at the age of five, then the oboe, and finally I chose the voice.
At what age ?
Twenty. So quite late. And I didn't have any traditional training...
Does the EXAUDI adventure continue for you? Are you still singing on the whole?
In principle, I always sing with them, but it's complicated; often my schedule fills up before EXAUDI's. It's a bit sad sometimes, but I try to keep going anyway, because it's my baby! It's a bit sad sometimes, but I still try to keep going, because it's my baby! When I sing Gesualdo's madrigals and our entire repertoire with them, which I know very well, I don't feel alone at all; they're my family!
Today, you sing mainly contemporary repertoire, but you have also sung a lot of early music. How do you view this repertoire today?
When I started singing, it was sacred music in church choirs at university. We sang music from the English tradition: Byrd, Tallis, Purcell, for example. We sang several times a week for Vespers, and all Masses: it was this type of music. And as soon as I started singing professionally, it was a continuation of this tradition, within English choirs. For example, with the Monteverdi Choir directed by John Eliot Gardiner, we sang a lot of Bach and Mozart. Later, with Philippe Herreweghe's Collegium Vocale Gent, I sang a lot of polyphony: music by Orlando de Lassus, Victoria, Morales and Gesualdo. These works are unmissable treasures!
Although you no longer sing this music in concert, do you still hum it when you get up in the morning?
No, not at all! I don't sing in the morning...(laughs)
I admit I miss it, but I'm currently thinking about how to keep old music in my life. I'm organizing a party with some friends from London: we're going to sing this music, and have a drink!
More seriously, I'm thinking about the possibilities of mixing early and contemporary music in my concert programs as a soloist. In what way, I don't know yet, but there are lots of possibilities! EXAUDI has always worked in this direction. But I want to take my time to find connections and bridges. I want to do it intelligently.
Can we now talk about the eavesdropping series you initiated? There won't be an edition this summer, but a small event linked to this series is planned in Aldeburgh, before the fourth edition next year?
Yes, indeed, I'll be presenting two artists from previous seasons. It's a great opportunity to reach another audience, and to present myself elsewhere eavesdropping is something special for me; it's an event that's evolving in spirit and form. It's no longer really a series, but rather a platform given to other artists, and it's very exciting for me to play this role! What I want to do is give them the support that I, too, needed as an artist in order to flourish: in a way, it's being a curator who knows exactly what other artists want, and gives them both a form of "control" and opportunities to act.
This platform includes several events: concerts, conferences, symposiums?
Next season, it will be a festival with concerts, a kind of conference (we've changed the formula a little), and a podcast - I do interviews with each artist. We're also thinking about other, more educational forms (workshops, training courses). For example, at the end of last season, we did a workshop on unconscious bias. I'd like to repeat the experience. The idea is to offer these training courses to intermittent musicians who are not supported by institutions or organizations and who don't have access to this type of training.
It's a six-day festival, with all kinds of creative music, including improvised music?
Yes, it's a great mix! And it's always a little different.
Every evening, I give carte blanche to two artists, and I try to find combinations that are a little strange, or interesting, or even similar for each evening. The field is vast: it can be improvisation, contemporary classical music, electro music, turntables. I'm even thinking of introducing spoken words (slam).
In other years, we've had quite a few artists doing things close to RnB, jazz, folk... So the focus is very broad.
Is breaking down barriers important to you?
Absolutely, and also to be able to realize that the boundaries between experimental genres are often very fine and can be porous.
Sometimes the terms we use to talk about music are too limited and risk not speaking to those who listen, because they don't take this porosity into account. In reality, in eavesdropping, I program what I want to hear, as a way of creating a slightly unexpected experience for myself!
How about the all that dust label, yet another Juliet Fraser extension? It's a three-way venture, with Newton Armstrong and Mark Knoop, it's a small independent label founded at the same time as eavesdropping in 2017. What is the label's ethos?
At the beginning of this work for the label, there were the complicated stories I had with other labels, which left me unsatisfied.
The idea was above all to create something for other artists that was more suitable, more flexible, less expensive, and gave them more control in the process. Newton and Mark and I share a long friendship. We each have our own skills, so we complement each other very well. And working as a trio allows us to get out of certain deadlocks.
We've planned for three years, and we're already in the label's sixth year. We'll see how things evolve, but it's a huge job, especially for them! They do the recording, mixing, mastering... I'm more active on the business side, communication and promotion. But it's an adventure, and it's a pleasure to work with the artists, and to contribute something to our little community.
What crazy dream do you have for the future, Juliet?
Honestly, I'm already very happy with what I'm doing. I feel nurtured and lucky. But, if I had a dream... I'd like to create a course for advanced singers who want to explore or develop a contemporary vocal repertoire. This doesn't exist in England: there's a gap!
There are also a few contemporary music academies for instrumentalists, initiated by ensembles, but there are very few for singers, and it's very difficult for students at the conservatoire to find a way to explore this repertoire. Everything is still very compartmentalized, blocked even, in the conservatories. I'd love to change that, but it's going to take some time.
It doesn't exist in France either! Apart from the initiatives of singers like Françoise Kubler, Valérie Philippin and Donatienne Michel Dansac...
Indeed, because the impetus comes from singers! These are personal initiatives, initiated by musicians who have lived through this experience, this lack. Such training didn't exist for me, nor no doubt for Donatienne or Françoise. That's why I want to help those who want to explore this rich and vast world. At the same time, I'd like to break the taboo of thinking that singing music written after... let's say... 1923 (laughs) is dangerous for the voice; that it's the end of your career - all these ridiculous ideas that irritate me enormously, because they're motivated by fear, and don't correspond to reality.
Is there still a long way to go to change mentalities?
Yes, for the moment, prejudices are tenacious!
Fortunately, there are residencies like Royaumont, in France, or Britten Pears Arts here in France, which are changing attitudes and outlooks. But in more traditional institutions, we're still a long way off. The aim is to recognize what creation offers to those who explore it: the promise of a great adventure, and a wonderful liberation.
Interview by Anne Montaron
You can hear Juliet Fraser on June 1st at the Philharmonie de Paris in Georges Aperghis' Zig Bang.
